Ep 06. Recovery tips post endurance races with Bevan McKinnon

Transcript

CAM HARPER

Welcome to Nutrition Mission with ANZCO Foods. My name is Cam Harper and I'm your host for Season 1 Beef, Lamb and Ironman, where we have been bringing you nutrition and good health from New Zealand's finest beef and lamb. Today we will be talking to Bevan McKinnon, an extremely accomplished triathlon performance coach about recovery after an endurance event like Ironman or any type of exercise for that matter. Bevan is an Ironman University Certified Coach, Triathlon New Zealand level three accredited coach, Bike NZ coach, a qualified Netfit strength and conditioning coach and runs a triathlon coaching business called Fitter. He has coached pro triathletes to multiple Ironman and 70.3 wins and been instrumental in helping a large number of age group triathletes achieve their dream of qualifying for Kona. He has also coached both ANZCO Foods ambassadors Braden Curry and Hannah Berry and hosts a podcast called Fitter Radio for the last nine years with nutritionist Mikki Williden. As an elite level triathlete, Bevan has won multiple races, including the age group world championships in Kona, ITU long course, and the 70.3 distance. Very impressive resume, Bevan, how are you going?

BEVAN MCKINNON

I'm great, mate, how are you?

CAM HARPER

I'm fantastic, thank you. Now today we're talking recovery, and from an endurance event like Ironman, to really any type of high impact exercise. And I know this is something you do spend a lot of time on with your athletes and through the work that you do. But let's go back to the basics, Bevan. Firstly, what happens to your body after an endurance event like Ironman?

BEVAN MCKINNON

Well, the most obvious is the things that you can feel, which is muscular damage, so soft tissue damage. And that's the one that most athletes use as a barometer of exactly how, you know, difficult the session or the race actually was. But there are another whole host of other systems that are involved in exercise in terms of our energy stores, our endocrine system which controls the hormones that help us exercise as such and actually do any human movement. And then there's also a neuromuscular component to fatigue, as well as a cognitive component as well. If you've done any particular event that's required motivation or concentration, then you get a bit of a brain fatigue that goes alongside that. So there's many different systems that are affected when you go for a workout or you're entered into a race.

CAM HARPER

So how long, I mean, this is a million-dollar question, really, how long should it take to recover from an event like Ironman?

BEVAN MCKINNON

Well, I think again, most athletes generally make the mistake of only using muscular soreness as a barometer for how recovered they are. And when that actually dissipates, they sort of think to themselves that they're ready to go again. But each of those systems that I mentioned before, they have different timelines in terms of recovery rates. So they're not all recovering at the same speed. And some respects, the hormonal system and the neuromuscular system, they actually come back online a lot slower than some of the musculoskeletal patterns and the damage that's caused to those particular systems as well. So it is the million dollar question as such. But the biggest mistake I see athletes making is getting back into training too soon once the muscular soreness is dissipated. So if it's an Ironman race, for example, I recommend for all my athletes they won't see any training in their program or in training peaks for at least two to three days after the event. It's such a significant stress on the body that I advocate for complete rest. And then, depending on how long they're out there, because some athletes can get these races done a lot quicker than others, but depending on how long they're out there, for the next, let's say, up to 10 days, and even longer than that, 14 to 21 days, I'm still introducing them back to exercise really cautiously. We've got to remember that something like an Ironman or even a 70.3 race is a significant stress on the body. And we need to take a significant approach to recovery to navigate our way back out of that so that we are ready to train again. Because if you look at somebody like Braden Curry, Hannah Berry, Mike Phillips, these sort of guys are at the pointy end of a race as professional athletes. You know, the people that are the back of the pack legends sort of going through in 16 and a half hours.

CAM HARPER

It's a heck of a void in intensity and actual ability to recover, isn't it?

BEVAN MCKINNON

It is. And the reason that the professional athletes can potentially entertain getting back into formal training a lot quicker than some of the amateur athletes that are out there for longer is their chronic training load is higher. So they are actually used to that level of stress because of the type of training that they're able to do. And that could be because they're in a position to train more, but equally so. It could be that they're just genetically predisposed to be great endurance athletes. So therefore, they may be going faster, they may be going at a slightly higher intensity, but their recovery rates are a lot greater as well, because everyone's ability to recover is gonna be different from individual to individual. But let's not forget that even though athletes say, well, we're going a lot slower, for every extra hour you're out there, I would suggest that it requires an extra day of recovery as a result of that. So we just have to be very mindful of the fact that we can't copy the pros. I think most age group athletes need to look at themselves as individuals. There's a lot of mood is a great indicator of how recovered you are, your sleep patterns, your brain function, all of these things that are not necessarily associated directly with muscular soreness, but ask the people around you to say, am I operating as you would expect me to? And if you're a little bit slow or sluggish or grumpy, then you certainly still need more recovery. And talking about recovery for somebody you're saying they go back too soon. I mean, most athletes, age group athletes I'm talking here, they've got to go back, reintroduce themselves to their family, then friends and their workmates and I don't know, the lawn mower or anything else. Trying to get some of that domestic bliss going again. It's quite easy as well to do it at the other end and that is to lose those gains that you've made. It is and it isn't really. What you've got to remember is generally, an Ironman is your peak performance for the year and fitness is not a linear progression. You can't just expect the body to keep improving and improving and improving. In any particular training cycle or any well thought out program, there's a period of stress and then there's a period of adaptation. In a race, we're building up to a race and then we need a period of recovery. We can't just expect the body to continue to grow without time and space for it to absorb the training and recover from the training. And that's the same thing for a race. As much as we feel that we're losing fitness and all that hard earned fitness that we got going into the event, that will come back to us again, but we have to treat the body carefully. We have to have times of rejuvenation and relaxation for us to be able to then train hard again. So yeah, one of the things is the fear of losing fitness, but one of the mantras I use is that you can lose a bit to gain a bit more in the future.

CAM HARPER

Yeah. Now we hear lots, Bevan, about fluid intake, nutrition, sleep, light exercise, ice cold baths. What do you believe are the fundamentals of recovery, and what does a typical recovery routine look like after an endurance event?

BEVAN MCKINNON

Well, you just can't go past the basics. We can be sold on all the latest gadgets and recovery modalities, and there'll be a trend out there at the moment that everyone's trying to follow. But in fact, the human body will probably recover the best if you give it the things that are just innate to life as a human. And so that's sleep and downtime, good quality sleep as well, and quantity helps the brain recover as much as the musculoskeletal system. And then nutrition and hydration. Your carbohydrate stores have been depleted, so you need to get a bit of carbs back in there so you can function properly. But what's so vitally important is your protein intake. Most of that muscular damage needs to be repaired, and that comes from our good quality protein sources. And then hydration status is probably gonna be affected as well. So certainly, fluid intake, your protein and carbohydrate intake on top of great quality sleep, and relaxation, like mental downtime. And then you can consider some of the more niche modalities there. If there's a lot of inflammation floating around, maybe some cold water therapy. I would even say active recovery is not necessarily high on the list, but certainly once after that two to three days post-race you start to do some active movement, gentle movement, not necessarily training. You can then think of a massage and after that you're thinking your recovery boots and a few other bits and pieces that are out there that are highly saleable products as such, but possibly not as important as the basics.

CAM HARPER

So what role does nutrition play in the recovery process, Bevan? We know protein is a critical component to that. What's your approach to integrating protein such as red meat?

BEVAN MCKINNON

Oh, absolutely. Like go for your whole unprocessed, good quality protein sources. Something like the ANZCO products, absolutely perfect for that. You definitely want to make sure that you've got just good, whole, unprocessed meals out there. And keep it simple. Shop around the outskirts of the supermarket so that you're getting your good whole grains and vegetables and fruits and, as I say, your proteins. And you don't have to go much more complex than that. Recovery shakes for sure because they're immediate and they're available to people almost immediately after the event. So the sooner that you can start that nutritional recovery, the better. But as I say, I'm very much an advocate of keeping it simple.

CAM HARPER

That makes a lot of sense. The other thing that makes me wonder is age. So somebody who's a, I always think to myself, as we start aging a wee bit, Bevan. Um.

BEVAN MCKINNON

Yeah, Cam, I know what you're talking about.

CAM HARPER

You know, you see someone that might be 25 and you think to yourself back when you're 25, I can't remember that far back, but when you think back to when you're 25, you could recover from anything quite quickly. Your body would adapt so fast, you seem to be able to naturally get away with it as opposed to somebody in their 50s, 60s or beyond.

BEVAN MCKINNON

Yeah, I think that's just coming down to the fact that our physical capacity is diminishing a little bit as we get older, but it doesn't mean that we need to take a different nutritional approach to the recovery processes. I think what we have to understand is, yeah, we bounce back a bit quicker. We seem to have a little bit more energy, you know, the vitality of youth is there, but it doesn't mean that we need to, we can avoid the simple, recovery strategies that I've just mentioned. I think they're applicable across any generation.

CAM HARPER

And what about recovery routines for different types of events or distances? I mean, if you look at Ironman versus 70.3, maybe versus a sprint tri, versus a multi-day endurance event or whatever it is, there's gotta be, you gotta have to adjust that recovery routine.

BEVAN MCKINNON

Yeah, only in terms of how long, in terms of the days post-event really, but I don't think the nutrition recovery component of it or how you're actually going to cautiously treat your body differs at all. I think all those modalities that I actually mentioned are still relevant. For the shorter events, generally the intensity is higher, so that comes with an extra stress. But for the longer events, the intensity is a bit lower, but the duration is the extra stress. So I think what it really comes down to is how long you're going to factor in the timeframes for recovery post-event, but I still maintain that the basics of sleep, hydration and good nutrition is vitally important.

CAM HARPER

And I think that's really important what you're saying is, you know, we're all different, we're wired differently, we all got different mental capacity and different physical capacity. So getting those basics right is just so important as you've been talking about.

BEVAN MCKINNON

Oh, absolutely. And we are so different. I mean, everyone should just stick to the basics for sure because that's the tried and tested. But all of us will have different rates of recovery. All of us will have different capacities to work. That's what makes individuals and athletes so unique when you're coaching them. You have to work out what works for each and every one. There's no one size fits all but what I would say from a recoveries perspective is the one size that fits all is the nutrition and the hydration post event or post workout.

CAM HARPER

And that nutrition and like you're saying, nutrition and hydration, they are so uber important because you do put yourself into a lot of deficit during these races, don't you?

BEVAN MCKINNON

Oh, absolutely. You and I have been around the sport long enough to know that the majority of the community normalise an Ironman. You know, to us it's actually not that big a deal. But to those people who haven't participated in the sport, it is a huge deal. And to those who are involved in the sport, I constantly remind them that it's a huge deal. We've tried to make the fact that some athletes can go out there and be out there for, like you say, 10, 12, 14, 16 hours. And when anyone from the general public hears about that endeavour, they're absolutely blown away by it. And it's a significant stress on the body. It is such a big toll, which is why I say, respect what you've done, be very proud of what you've achieved. Treat the body as it should be post-event and don't rush to get back into anything because don't normalise, don't downplay what you've just done. It's a huge toll on the body so you need to afford it huge respect on the other side of it so that you recover from it.

CAM HARPER

So with your athletes, or athletes you've seen, if you get through those, you give them a few days off and they wanna maintain that active recovery, what's the balance between the active recovery along with rest and relaxation? I don't know what their recovery may be, but they go for a gentle jog or spin your legs on your trainer or go down to the pool, but they might get through a warmup and go, you know what, I'm just not feeling this. What's your approach on that?

BEVAN MCKINNON

Absolutely, I think that's a great way. I would generally deter them from doing any of the swim bike run outside of swimming maybe because of the low impact nature of it, but certainly not running. We just don't have the volumes of training in our legs to do what we would call a recovery run as such. I think running per se for the vast majority of us is still stressful and so we're not looking for anything that is stressful in the recovery phase. So a workout as such that has any intensity and it stay well clear of that. The barometer is if you are gonna choose something like cycling or swimming, within the first five to 10 minutes, if you feel rubbish, then can it. Go find something else to do. Go for a gentle walk. Reconnect with the people around you that have supported you to this event. I think that's really, really important. I think it's vitally important to pay back because you've probably had to sacrifice a lot and the people around you have had to sacrifice a lot for you to get to one of these events. So it's don't rush, take things slowly. And when we talk gentle exercise, don't think of it being moving your fitness forward or holding on to what you're fearing of losing. I think it's just gentle movement in nature. I think it's great to get outdoors, get some sunlight, get some fresh air, and decompress as such. So as you mentioned before, I think it's important. If you do want to start to test whether your body's ready to train again, then give yourself at like a five to ten minute window at the beginning of the session, because I know a lot of athletes, when I've worked with them, they tell me they're ready to go. And I always see like almost a second slump after an Ironman, certainly the first two to three days everyone's feeling quite tired and moving slowly. But then I sometimes see between seven to 10 days, almost like a second slump that occurs. So yeah, I think if you're feeling bad within your first few workouts back, then choose to make it very easy or choose another mode of exercise and just wait till your body gives you the signs that you're ready to go again.

CAM HARPER

And it's interesting you mention that because that mental and emotional recovery, I mean after an Ironman you feel like you've got brain fog for a long time afterwards. And so balancing that, or that approach to mental and emotional recovery is tough, isn't it? For age group athletes or anybody in that sphere.

BEVAN MCKINNON

Oh, let me tell you, I am not to pull comparisons from when I was an athlete, but I remember going to Kona and I won my age group in Kona, and I was an asshole after that event for probably nearly two weeks. And I remember the first time I went to Kona years and years prior to that, I was horrific to be around for a couple of weeks. And, you know, say for example, having great success at a race like Kona and still being in a bad mood shows you how tough that event is and any Ironman is. So yeah, certainly recharging emotionally, taking time to allow your mood to come back into line as well. That's a great barometer. A good friend of mine, Dr. Matt Brick, world duathlon champion out of New Zealand, he said, if you meet more than three assholes in a day, then it's probably you more than it is them. And it's a great barometer to ask yourself, how recovered am I emotionally, because that's a good sign that your body's playing catch up.

CAM HARPER

So if you've got somebody that is playing catch up and they're at you going, Bevan, I'm ready, come on, let me out, I wanna get on the pitch, I wanna get back into this, I wanna enter this event, and people can be over eager, how do you determine when they are ready to go again?

BEVAN MCKINNON

Well, what I like to do is use a mix of data as much as we get the sort of subjective feedback from the athlete. We also want to mix it in with some of the technology that's available to us now. So one of the things I use is resting heart rate and heart rate variability, which is a measure of the state of the autonomic nervous system. Are we still in fight or flight or are we in a more rest and digest mode? And if we can take the athlete's feedback because sometimes they are not as good at being honest with themselves. They're always racing to get back into work. They very rarely tell you they're tired. They don't tell you when they've got a niggle. They're always wanting to get back earlier than the coaches, but I think if you can use some of that honest communication with the athlete, along with some of the data that I've mentioned, resting heart rate in the morning, heart rate variability, to see whether they're actually rested and in a relaxed state, that will help go a long way for you to make a really good decision as to when they're ready to go again.

CAM HARPER

It's interesting too, Bevan, you know, Meredith Kessler, who we both know well, multiple time winner at Ironman New Zealand, she was just out here recently at Nutrigrain Ironman New Zealand, and she had told me once, and I think she's done like, I'm gonna say 75 Ironmans, something like that now, knows herself incredibly well, mum to two kids now, but she says that she always does what she calls a web session, and web stands for why even bother. And it's basically her warm up. And she always, always does the warm up. And then after that, she goes, you know what, I'm just not feeling it. Or, you know what, I've actually come good through my warm up, and away she goes. And being able to have that, be wired for that self preservation takes you a long way as an individual athlete, doesn't it?

BEVAN MCKINNON

Oh, absolutely. And I think it takes a few years to get to that point as well. And that's where good coaches come into play as well. They help educate the athlete that, you know, we don't have to be perfect every single day. The body oscillates through being ready, being less ready, being ready, being less ready. It's hard to predict at times. We go, we do a lot to try to predict that, but at times we have other external factors as amateur athletes. We've got relationships, we've got family, we've got work pressures, we've got social lives. We've got a whole host of other things that we can't measure with our Garmins on our wrists or any other of the devices that we have to measure what we're doing in training. It's hard to predict, but with good communication between yourself and honest communication with your coach, you should be able to get to a point where you actually realise sometimes you'll get fitter by not training. And that's the key here. We get most of our adaptation occurs in the time between workouts. So when we get it, when we understand that we can actually become more confident with applying recovery, knowing that it's only the time when our body is growing stronger. So recovery is when we get better, training is when we stress ourselves, and when an athlete appreciates that and understands that, then they become more relaxed about taking time off from training in order to have that adaptation occur.

CAM HARPER

Now, March 2024 will be here in a hot minute. Bevan, let's be honest, the nightmare New Zealand will be on our doorstep very quickly. So what would a competitor need to start doing or thinking about as they prepare for that race?

BEVAN MCKINNON

I think the key thing is getting buy-in from friends and family because it's an incredibly, you know, selfish pursuit at time that does need more than, you know, it takes a village to get people there. So I think firstly, they have to really look at what it's gonna take and when their peak training weeks are going to actually occur and really alert everyone around them as to when that's gonna be, because they're not gonna be normal people through that phase. There's a heavy fatigue associated with training for an Ironman, and as much as the athlete thinks they're fine during that, it's more the people on the outside that can tell them whether they're fine or not. So I really do think that being able to block out the periods of the year when they feel them or their coaches can help them understand when they're gonna be most at need of support from their close loved ones and people that are associated with this build up to New Zealand Ironman. And then start early. Don't leave it till the last minute. Progressive overload is really important in order to avoid illness and injury. So you're right. I mean, it might be that we've only just had New Zealand Ironman and the next one is relatively far away, but it's going to come around quickly. But now is the time that you should be thinking about what you're going to do in terms of your preparation. So that's it. Week on week you can just gradually increase the training load so that it doesn't come all as one shock later in the year. And lastly I would encourage people to find one of the really great coaches that are available around New Zealand to give them some structure and some guidance and to be a sounding board for their build up to March 2024.

CAM HARPER

That's awesome, Bevan, thank you very much. Now finally, we always end these episodes with a sprint finish, and I know you're a fan of those. So I'm gonna ask you a few questions, and you have to answer the first thing that comes to mind. Is that all good with you?

BEVAN MCKINNON

Yeah, no problems.

CAM HARPER

Okay, so number one, are you a morning person or a night person?

BEVAN MCKINNON

Absolute morning person.

CAM HARPER

What's your favourite hobby that's not sport?

BEVAN MCKINNON

Listening to music.

CAM HARPER

Is nutrition an art or a science?

BEVAN MCKINNON

It's a bit of both really, but I would suspect that the majority of age group athletes could understand the science more in order to avoid illness and injury. So I'm gonna say, apply nutrition science and I think you're gonna have a better long-term outcome from your training.

CAM HARPER

So you're off to a barbecue, what meat do you take?

BEVAN MCKINNON

Oh, it's a Tomahawk steak. Yeah.

CAM HARPER

That's good. I love it. And with that Tomahawk steak, how do you have it? Well done, medium, or rare?

BEVAN MCKINNON

Medium rare every time.

CAM HARPER
Yeah, you can't go wrong with that, can you?

BEVAN MCKINNON

No, no. I'm hungry now. I'm hungry now, Cam.

CAM HARPER

I know, that's the issue I have.

BEVAN MCKINNON

I actually had a steak sandwich for breakfast.

CAM HARPER

Did you?

BEVAN MCKINNON

Yes, from a barbecue the night before, I had a steak sandwich for breakfast, so there you go. I've got to say. I'm not lying. I've got to say, a steak Sammy for breakfast after the barbecue the night before is one of my favourite things of all time.

CAM HARPER

Absolutely, you can't go wrong. You can't go wrong. Well Bevan thank you so much for your time, really appreciate it.

BEVAN MCKINNON

No problem, thanks.

CAM HARPER

We have made it to the finish line of the final podcast in our series of Nutrition Mission with ANZCO Foods. Season 1 Beef, Lamb and Ironman. Thank you Bevan for joining us and thank you for tuning in to Nutrition Mission with ANZCO Foods. If you enjoyed our podcast and want to find out more, head to anzcofoods.com/ironman for more insights and news. Subscribe to our Nutrition Mission with ANZCO Foods podcast and keep an ear out for the next series in the pipeline.